Dauntless PR Unfiltered
Dauntless PR Unfiltered is a new no-holds-barred podcast revealing the things people really need to know about building their brand and getting into the media. In each episode, Luana Ribeira, founder of Dauntless PR, and Catherine Ball, an experienced UK journalist, share their PR secrets and tricks of the trade to help entrepreneurs and experts raise their visibility and reach more people.
Dauntless PR Unfiltered
How to Stand Out as a Coach or Expert
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It can often seem like your niche is too crowded. And yes, there are many others who do something similar to you.
So, it’ll come as no surprise that one of the most common questions we get is ‘how can I stand out?’
That’s what journalist Catherine Ball and I answer today on Dauntless PR Unfiltered.
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Why “About Me” Pitches Fail
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Dauntless PR and Filtered with me Luana Rivera and Catherine Ball. What we're going to talk about today is how to stand out as a coach or expert.
SPEAKER_00So I feel like we have talked a lot on this podcast about like the importance of sharing your personal story, things like that. But I feel like there are some fundamental things that people can do to really amplify their voice as an expert. So what I'm talking about here is sharing those gems of wisdom that you have, those messages that you have, the things that you are always telling your clients that you're thinking and things like that. What people tend to do when they first start on thinking about what they want PR is they want, they think, oh, I want a piece about me as an expert. And they imagine a feature that's just, hi, I'm this person, I'm an expert in this. These are who I work with. This is my business. But actually, think about it from the perspective of someone who hopefully reads a bit of media. How much would you click on a story that was just like, here is this woman and her business? She got to however many figures in this, unless it was she got to like nine figures in two days, then you'd probably be like, Oh, how did you do it? But you know, if it was just somebody talking about, this is my business, this is what I do, that's an about us page, in my opinion. That's what you go onto somebody's website and you read their little about us section. That's not something you would find in a magazine or on a TV show or in a newspaper. So with this, I feel like you have to detach your ego, leave it outside the room, and really then have a chat to yourself and think, what is it that I'm saying that people need to hear? What is it that I'm saying that's different that isn't what everybody else is saying? Not what Chat GPT tells you nobody else is saying, but what are people really not saying? And you might have to be a little bit controversial. You might have to call out some bullshit. You might have to say, this is a huge misconception that people have. Um, and sometimes that the accessing what the things are that you really need to say and that people are really going to be interested in can be a little bit confronting and uncomfortable. And I think that is often where people get stuck because what they will think in a glossy marketing thing of, oh, what should my branding be like? What should I be saying? And they won't be getting to that real raw truth of what actually needs to be said in their industry.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And what people connect on are real like shared opinions, lived experience. But what most people do when they first go into media is they overfocus on how they're coming across, how they're being perceived, how they're being positioned, how what they say will make them look, how being associated with this brand will make them look, and they're not the things that matter. And that might be a bit wild for somebody in PR to say, because a lot of people believe that PR is all about perception, and it is, but we believe that perception that it's about showing the very real part of yourself, not becoming somebody new, not looking perfectly polished, not over-editing, filtering, playing it safe, but actually saying the things that you know that you were here to say. You know the things that you can say to your business bestie. Like let's say that you're sending a voice note to your business bestie. What do you say to them that you don't yet say publicly? That'll give you a clue
Detach Ego And Tell The Truth
SPEAKER_01about the types of things that are going to land. And we don't mean be reckless. We're not saying be reckless, we're not saying blurt whatever's on your mind, be very intentional with it. But instead of thinking, how will this come across? How will this uh think about how will that land with my people? What do my people really need to hear? Not particularly what they want to hear, even what do they need to hear?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And also make sure that you're saying stuff that is accessible to everybody, even the people that you don't want to work with. And this is an uncomfortable thing that people don't want to hear, but I'm not, you know, let's not sugarcoat it. If you want to be hugely visible and build your credibility and authority in large media things, you cannot only appeal to the people you would get on a sales call with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You are gonna have to have things that you say. Doesn't mean that you don't have your ideal client in mind with what you're doing, but you have to also say things that are useful to bigger numbers of people. Because what will happen is that you will establish yourself as the go-to voice in your subject. And then people who can afford you will want to work with you. You don't only have to speak to people with a huge bank balance. You can only work, you know, you can set your prices so that you only work with people who can afford you, but don't feel like you only need to say, and this is a huge mistake I see coaches and experts and therapists and think making, where they kind of go, Well, I don't want to talk about that because actually the only people who could afford my 12-week program are people that earn this much and over. Well, yeah, but if you're seen as somebody that is the real voice of this subject, then people are going to pay high amounts of money because they're gonna see you as a hugely credible person. It's something that I feel like it's putting the cart before the horse when people are like, I will only appear in very prestigious publications speaking to very high value, I hate that phrase, but like high value individuals. I hate it. I will only say these things. And that's like, well, yeah, great, but you're probably not going to achieve that unless you also achieve a level of visibility that you are all gonna get from saying things that everybody needs to hear. Um, thinking about what common messages have you got that is gonna be relevant to lots and lots of people, um, you are gonna notice that as you build your reputation as being an expert in something. So, say for example, let's take like a health and fitness thing, you might have a very premium program, but if people don't see your advice and they don't get to know that you know what you want, how are they gonna pay for that? So, by saying things that everybody can access in platforms read by lots of people, that's how you build yourself up so that you can be attracting in those people that you want. So you don't have to pick an audience. This is a really something that I feel there is huge misconceptions, and I don't know. I think it's probably coming from people mixing up marketing and PR. And you know, that's where it's coming from. And people are like, I need to pick which audience to focus on. But you don't at all because you appearing in a national newspaper, being on a local news TV program, being on a podcast, being in a glossy magazine, none of those things are gonna stop you doing the others. You know, if you're talking in one thing, you don't have to pick, do I go for the glossy magazine or do I go for the podcast? Do both. Speak to different people, work out which parts of your message work for um the different people that might be listening, the different audiences. And you will have things. So sometimes people will be like, but I don't really have anything that will work. Well, yes, of course you do. Everybody does, you know. Yes, you might be like, Oh, my stuff only really applies to women or men or something like that, but you definitely will have things that have a broader appeal than you realize that you can tap into. Um, and those things will really help make you the
Go Broad Without Diluting Your Message
SPEAKER_00person that people are like, oh, I see this person popping up all the time. It will give you that recognizability, it will give you that visibility, and it's not watering down your message, it's tapping into which parts of it do different people need to hear.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Go abroad. Like that is the opposite to what you've been hearing all over, but go abroad. Marketing is not PR. With PR, you go abroad, okay? Um, something else that popped into my mind then when he was speaking, Catherine, is like if somebody thinks that or somebody knows that their message is powerful, why the hell would they want to contain it? Why would they not want to set it free? Why would they not want to get it out there in front of as many different people as possible, whether they're going to work with them or not? Because if somebody is saying, My message is so powerful, I'm purpose-driven, I just want to help people, but they're containing their message, well, then there's a disconnect somewhere there, isn't there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I, you know, I've used this example before. I'm going to use it again, but say, like Joe Wicks did lots and lots of free fitness videos that anybody could watch and do it. But that didn't mean I'm sure that there were lots of people who pay him very large amounts of money for one-to-one. The fact that he did um those free videos. It's like, for example, um if you bought somebody's book, like a very well-known person in their niche and you bought their book, and so did millions of other people, it doesn't mean that
Free Value Builds Paid Demand
SPEAKER_00because people bought their book for, you know, $7.99 or whatever it is, that they wouldn't, that the people that could afford to wouldn't pay to work with them individually. I think this is this is a kind of a an issue that people think, oh, if I give them too much at like a low cost of free, they won't pay to work with me. And actually the opposite is true. I'd be so much more likely to want to pay to work with someone if I had read their book or I had seen them on the TV or I had heard them on a podcast, and I had thought this is the stuff that they are talking about, you know, for free. Like, how much better is their stuff going to be when they're working directly with me and able to give me advice and personalized tailored program to my needs. So actually, showing your expertise and wisdom is never a bad thing. You're never going to talk somebody out of working with you by showing that you know your shit. You know, that is going to do the opposite. So the people that will be like, oh, I'll only tell you if you sign up to my whatever program, that you're not giving them anything to sort of say, oh my God, no, like I heard I heard you on a podcast and what you said changed my life. So I know that working with you is going to do even more. You know, that's the energy that we want to be going into. And not being afraid to call out things that you see that this is something, and again, it's uncomfortable. The things that really work will often feel a little bit uncomfortable. If there is some common things that everybody says in your industry that you do not agree with, that you think is rubbish, like that's the stuff to tap into. Call it out, say it. Yeah, don't think about think about the wider thing rather than think about how you're perceived within your very small community of experts. This is the thing that I notice a lot, people will perform for each other rather than the audience. So, like coaches, yeah, we'll think about what other coaches think about them and what they're doing, and somehow the actual people that they want to reach
One-Person Visualisation For Clearer Messaging
SPEAKER_00get lost.
SPEAKER_01That's so common. I've I've got I've got an exercise for this, Katherine. It's called uh the one-person visualization and the three channels of visibility. So before you show up for a podcast, an interview, before you even write a social post, you can do this. So what you do is focus on one person who you already work with, who is somebody who would be in that audience that you're about to show up with and think about them in detail. So it's a real person, you've already worked with them, okay? And you imagine that that is the only person in the audience. You don't imagine that they're the host, you imagine that they're the only person watching or the only person reading or listening or whatever. And you really visualize their mannerisms, how they talk, how they respond, so that you are speaking directly to them. But the other thing that's really important when doing that, oh, hang on. The purpose, first of all, is if you've got that ideal client and you want to attract more to them and you're speaking to them in a way that's direct, that's how you call in more of those people. That's how you end up working with the people you light you up, who you love working with. It's exactly by doing this, okay? But the other part of it is then you decide, well, what stage is that person at? And that will depend which kind of audience you're going into. So if they're at the awaken stage, that's a broad audience. So that is when you're
Awaken Awareness Alignment Explained
SPEAKER_01going on BBC radio, when you're going on the television, when you're going in a newspaper, something like that, is called the awaken phase. And when somebody's in the awakened phase, they don't yet, they don't know you. They've never heard of you. They're not problem aware, they don't know that they need your thing yet, they don't know anything. And so you imagine that you're still speaking to that one person, but they're at the stage yet where they weren't aware. And then you make sure that's how you make sure that there's a broader appeal there because you want to speak to them at the level they're at, the level of understanding that they're at, not assuming at that point that they know what you're talking about, because that's how people accidentally start talking to their peers and trying to sound too clever and stuff like that. Like it's just speaking to them at the level that they're at. And then the next phase, and the purpose of getting in front of any audience is to take them to the next phase. So the next phase is the awareness phase, and that means that they've become interested, that they want to know more about what you've got now. Like they might know you or they might have heard about you. You might start becoming recognizable to them, but they're very interested in your topic now, they're looking for information. They're not quite ready to buy yet, but they're looking for information, they are more aware. So these are like the niche podcasts, the trade magazines, that's those sorts of things. The ones where the audience might be smaller, but then actively more involved with that particular topic, if that makes sense. And then the third stage, which is for social media, email campaigns. This isn't for the press and it's not for podcasts. The third stage is the alignment channel. And what they do in the alignment channel, like when they're at this phase, they know that they need what you've got. They just need to know that you're the right fit. So that's where your marketing comes into play on your socials. Yeah. And that's really that technique really, really helps to be able to because there's nuance, isn't there? It's like speaking to that person that you want, but also it has to appeal to everybody else in on, you know, it has to appeal to the broader audience as well, and not just that person. So that's why the phases, the visibility channels are so important as well, not just doing the one-person visualization. So together they are really powerful.
SPEAKER_00And I think the the issue that because as humans,
Why Media Is Not A Sales Call
SPEAKER_00we are by nature often quite impatient, aren't we? We want to we think about what we want and we want to get there right now. We don't want to know everything yesterday. And like we're both like that, so we get it. Like, you know, it's tempting to people to think, well, this is the stage I want people to be at. I want people to be at the I'm ready to buy, tell me all about the program. But the problem is that you need people to work through those levels. You can't go into the press with your sales pitch of you can't go in in the way you would with a sales call with someone who's already warm and is interested and has responded to some messages. And people will typically try to write a pitch that is literally how they would try and close sale. And I'm like, people aren't there, people are not there, people are not, you don't want to get in with this is how much it costs, this is when it starts. That's not a media pitch. The media don't want to imagine if you picked up a newspaper, you clicked on your favorite website, or you listened to your favorite podcast, and all it was was somebody telling you to join their program. You would just walk away, you wouldn't be like, This isn't interesting to me. You want to hear what's the issue, what's the problem I might have, what's the advice, what do I need to know? And then you will gradually work your way up, and then, like you say, that actual, the really targeted stuff that needs to take place in your own marketing and social media. That there is no place for it in the media, and let me tell you, there is no journalist alive who is desperate to um tell people the full joining details of somebody's program, or you know, they'll they'll be happy to include a web link usually. They'll be happy to, if you've written a book or here's the book, but they don't want to do your sales work for you. They want to share what's interesting to their audience. So it's tapping into that and letting your own social media and marketing do that final stage, not trying to cut out the middleman and go straight to selling in the media. And that's it. A big change of attitude that I think people and I I partly blame the fact that so many people no longer look at media themselves, that they have opted out, and so they've forgotten what people even find interesting. So I would challenge people to actually just look at your favourite magazine, look at a newspaper you'd like to be in, look at the kind of things they actually cover, because it won't be. I can promise you now, unless it's a pay-to-play publication that you've picked up, it won't be. Hi, here's Georgia. She is a seven-figure coach who's running a program that starts in September. Please join. That's not what you're gonna find. You're gonna find somebody sharing their wisdom, sharing their insights, sharing their opinions and their perspectives. And that's what you need to tap into for yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, your only goal is to take those people into the next channel, not to sell them immediately, but to take them from awakened to awareness to alignment, and that's when you go for the sale, not the floor. Absolutely. So, how about some suggestions of specific
Ideas That Cut Through And Convert
SPEAKER_01things that you can talk about as an expert that's likely to cut through and land? So things like opinions that go against the grain. But when you do this one, okay, here's the thing, okay. A lot of people think that they're being very controversial. And by the way, we don't ruffle feathers for the sake of ruffling feathers. It's like if feathers get ruffled, it's a side effect because you're saying something real, you're saying something true, and you're saying something important. We never ever go in with the intention of, oh, let's riffle feathers. I lost my place now because I've gone off on the tangent. What was I on about? Oh, yeah. So when you are thinking about your opinions that you've got that go against the grain, make sure that they are actually opinions that do go against the grain. Like you'll see a lot of people, you'll you'll know as well as I do. Like you'll see a lot of social media people saying things like um unpopular opinion, followed by something very safe that everybody already agrees on. Um, and ChatGPT is a big culprit for this, I believe, because it will tell you, you know, that your idea is the most amazing, most unique thing ever, but it only knows because it's already something that's been widely talked about. So think about the the real, you know, the real opinions that you've got that actually might cause a bit of um well it might cause feathers to get refulled, but what it'll do in equal measure is it'll call in the right people.
SPEAKER_00I always think about your own epiphanies. What were those light bulb moments and like brain-changing realizations that you had on your own journey and we've all had them what were the things where you suddenly went oh it isn't that we need to be thinking about this instead what were those things and it will be different for each person so I can't give you a list of saying it will be this you know it will be different for each person but what were the things that you maybe realized while you were working with people in your expertise while you were doing the work what were those things that you kind of went oh okay this has changed my perspective because those are the things that will often be really important valuable things to share um I remember when I was doing lots of parenting journalism people would come to me constantly with things that everybody already knew but it was the things that people would say that would make me kind of go, oh that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it like that. They were the things I said yes to the or the deeper thing the oh you're already doing this but why not also try this you know something that would take it further um the people who would pitch and just say things like almost like Wikipedia fact sheets people would sort of like pitch things that were things that were just widely known facts. So they'd be like you should start weaning your baby at six months or something like that. And I'd be like I write for a parenting magazine of obviously that's the the understood thing but if someone had said you know um life acts things that will make life easier while you're doing the thing that everybody needs to do or things that are going to um help you save time reduce stress or just it's working out what do people need to know and what will actually be life changing for somebody to know what will actually make them read that or listen to it and go, that has completely changed my perspective on something or I'm going to go and try that something that makes them want to like do something afterwards or I want to hear more. I want to hear more so I'm gonna go find this person on social media and watch their videos or I'm gonna buy their book because what they just said in two minutes on this very short slot on a radio station has made me go question my own reality. So now I need to read their book and find out like what else have they got to say it's those little nuggets that you will have had your own light bulb moments when they came to you. So it's about sharing those special um little little like just realizations.
SPEAKER_01I think that's the thing not the stuff that you're taught and that everyone has to know not the you know this is the facts but how do you interpret the facts how do you use them and actually do something useful with them and laugh what are those special things that when you tell people you will know if you're a coach or a therapist or any other kind of expert that works with people what are the things that when you tell them they say oh that's completely changed how I think about that those are the things to share more widely yes and personal experience as well like even if you can't immediately see how it connects to your business it always will by the way even if you can't immediately see it and you can't see how it's relevant share it anyway because people get this on socials right very very few people on socials will just share expertise like most people know that you you share that but you also share aspects of yourself
Personal Stories And The Multi-Lane Highway
SPEAKER_01like your opinions your personal experiences stuff like that. But then a lot of people when they go into press they tend to only want to stick to the safe expert pieces and I'm gonna I'm gonna use an example now because you all remember this Catherine do you remember when I told you the story about me buying a house drunk in my 20s and you were saying we have to pitch that and I was going what no like what's that got to do with it and they'd say people are going to be interested in that like what's it got to do with it anyway it went out there. It was a fun quirky little piece and I hated it when it first and this is very true the things that create momentum are 99.9% of the time the things that make us uncomfortable that our first reaction might be to hate it. And I hate that phrase but it's true okay so I was deeply uncomfortable when that came out because it went all over the place didn't it really it's just spread like wildfire and then my inbox was absolutely full of people anyway that piece has brought in more clients than any kind of expert piece that I've ever done it's always the ones that initially when it came out that I had that feeling of wanting to shrink and just going oh no I don't want that story out there now I don't like it. And then those are the ones those are the ones that work not not so much the safe expert pieces. And I'm not saying don't do the safe expert pieces of course I'm saying do all of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah it's um one of my favorite analogies is do not see media as being a fork in the road and you have to pick one or the other it is a multi-lane highway and you can do it all. And that is the most effective way to your destination not going off and being like oh I will pick this one particular angle and I will only talk about that and go off down some little country lane on this thing go on the big fast multi-lane highway with lots of options and that will get you to your destination quicker. I think that's exactly a great
Questions And How To Reach Us
SPEAKER_00point to stop as well.
SPEAKER_01But yeah okay so any questions comments we always love to hear from you also send us some questions and let's see if we can get them covered on another episode of Dortmunds PR until the email as always hello at dauntlesspr.com see you soon