What We Do Differently at Dauntless PR

There are many different ways to get the same result, but the same route isn't aligned with each individual person. In this new episode of Dauntless PR Unfiltered, Catherine Ball and I chat about how we approach PR and why we do things differently.

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Transcript

Welcome And What We Do

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Dauntless PR and Filtered. The topic we're going to be covering today is what we do differently at Dauntless PR.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

So there's quite where do we even start? Because I feel like there's quite a lot of things that we we do differently.

Why Flexibility Beats Fixed PR

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Probably the one that I like the most is that I feel like we have a really flexible and intuitive approach to PR. Yes. So whereas some agencies, and by the way, when I'm saying we do it differently, this isn't to say everybody else is wrong. Everyone has their own strategies, but this is how we do it. Some agencies will spend a long time coming up with, you know, a big PR plan, setting out every single thing month by month. Not a problem with that, but it's not very flexible. So if something happens that is ideal for that client, you know, things can happen in the world that suddenly, you know, you are in demand as an expert in your niche because of what's going on in the world, or things happen with you. Like you stuff might happen with you, and you might suddenly get like something you feel really called to talk about, like a real passion, or you might want to change your business. That is not an issue with us at Dauntless because we very much are led. Okay, what's your goals? What's your why? What are you wanting? What excites you? And often that will change, even if people don't think it will. So, for example, somebody might join us and they might say, I really want to write lots of articles. I really want to write loads of articles. I want to focus on writing articles for different media outlets. I'm you know, brilliant. Put the focus on that. By month two or three, they might be like, I'm so bored of writing articles. It feels really heavy, it's too much, it's taking more time than I thought. I don't love it as much as I think I would. If you had a kind of a set in stone PR plan, you might almost get a bit of pushback from some agency where they might be like, but but we've planned, you know, this is what we're gonna do in month four, this is what we're doing in month five. Yes, they might change it for you, but it we're never gonna make you feel bad for pivoting, for changing what you want to do, for changing focus. And that doesn't mean, oh, you know, you should change your priorities every every day and come up with something new and all that kind of thing, but it's constantly checking in with you with, okay, so what's happening with you right now? What are you enjoying? What do you want to do? Where next? Because it isn't always gonna look how you think it looks at the start. Sometimes you're gonna go, I actually discovered I really love doing podcasts. Or you might say, I actually discovered I don't like doing that. I'd rather do something else. But until you're doing it, you don't know. And so I think one of the things I most love is that we do very much work with people to be like, okay, what's going on for you? What's your priorities? What are your goals? And it's fine for that to change. Like it doesn't have to stay exactly as you thought on day one. It can change, it can evolve. Maybe you'll get your dream goal early on, and then you have to think of something else. Okay, well, I've got that now. What next? Rather than it being set on, well, I'll get that, and then it's you know, constantly evolving.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Yeah, evolving. That's the thing because we are constantly evolving, aren't we? And what we want in January might be completely different from June, July. Like somebody asked me the other day, have I achieved my goals for this year? And I'm like, What? Like, I changed them. I didn't achieve, I mean, like I what I thought was important to me at the beginning of the year, for a few months on, even, isn't important to me anymore. I completely shifted, and we are humans, and we do that, and that's completely okay, you know. And it's not about like flip-flopping the whole time and changing what you're doing and everything like that. But by not being fluid, what happens is it's like what you you said about the news. Like, we don't know. Nobody can predict the news cycle, nobody can predict when is going to be a big moment for a certain type of expert. And if things are too rigid, then you might miss those moments.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah. I also think, as well, that the kind of people who work for themselves, who run businesses, who are coaches, who are experts, they are constantly having these kind of turning points and epiphanies. Epiphanies, yeah, yeah. So you might set out thinking your message is gonna stay being this one thing. And then maybe you suddenly think, actually, no, I'm really, really want to also, you might stay with your message, but also have some other things you really want to talk about. And I think it's because it doesn't, and this is something I say a lot, doesn't have to be either or it can be and you can do this and this. It doesn't have to be you know, multiple things can be true at once. You wouldn't expect, if you actually think about somebody who is in the media a lot, you wouldn't expect to hear them say the same thing every time you read about them, heard about them, listened to them, because you'd be bored, you'd be going, oh, I've already heard them say this. So it doesn't even work having a really big amount of media coverage if you're only saying the same thing. Because what outlets do is they kind of go, Oh, but you already talked about that in the Daily Mail. So like we need something. What else have you got? Yeah. Yeah, what else have you got? And if you go, oh, but my plan is just to say this one thing in as many outlets as I can, well, that's your plan, but it's not going to be any journalist plan to be like, oh, we'll be the 65th outlet to run this story. They'll be like, Oh, yeah, well, we loved it the first time when you went to one of our rivals, but what else have you got to

What Journalists Actually Want

SPEAKER_00 6:24

say? So it's, and that's another thing I think we do differently, not from everybody. I'm sure that there are other PR agencies, but we are very no nonsense and honest, and we make sure you realize that what you want and what the journalists want are not always going to be the same, and it's finding where they meet. Where do they cross over? Where on what you're wanting to say, what are those of those things appeal to the media? Because, you know, nobody has gone to train as a journalist thinking I want to write some adverts for people running their own business so that those people can convert more sales and they can put my logo on the website. That is no journalist is thinking that when they're sitting at the desk. They're thinking, what's the new thing I can talk about? How can I educate? How can I entertain? How can I inform? How can I inspire my audience? Maybe how can I shock them? It could be anything. They're wanting something that's gonna drive traffic to their outlets website, that's gonna get listeners, if it's a podcast or a radio show that's gonna get viewers, that's gonna get engagement. They're not thinking about your priorities. So to get the success, sometimes you have to think, okay, these are my priorities. How do they also align with their priorities? Like, how can we make this work together? And I think we, I think everyone in PR who is successful understands that. But I think we we're very open and upfront in telling people about that. That we don't hide that. We don't pretend that if you have an angle that is not going to appeal to anybody, we don't just gas you up and say, oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

No, we would never, ever blow smoke up somebody's ass. Ever. We will always be honest and not in a negative way. Like, you know, if something is possible, then we will do everything that we can to make it happen. But we're not gonna tell you that something is guaranteed or that it's definitely gonna happen. Like we will be honest with you and tell you exactly what it's gonna take. We will be honest with you that when your pieces go out there for the first time, particularly if they're more personal or vulnerable, it's not gonna be elation that you feel. Oh, it's unlikely to be, it's most likely that it's gonna feel exposing and you're gonna want to hide, like, and all of this is predictable and completely normal.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Yeah. And you know, that's not, I don't think it does anybody any favors to tell them what they want to hear. Um if it's not true, you know, sometimes it will happen to be that we might say what you want to hear, and it because that happens to be be the truth, but yeah, it's it doesn't do you any favors to just say, oh, I'm amazing, oh brilliant, you're oh, this is gonna flat, you know, journalists are gonna be snapping your hand off for this story, and then if it doesn't happen, you're gonna feel really rejected. And this is another thing that I think I'm always really clear with people is that, you know, nobody, it's never personal. If a journalist doesn't run your story, it's never personal. It's never that they have just made a judgment call and gone, oh, you're a really boring person. It's just that you might not be right for that time.

Visibility Takes More Than One Hit

SPEAKER_00 9:57

So, what we do is we help people with how do we have an approach that means that we can keep trying to make sure that you are finding places that want to hear your story, rather than pinning people's hopes on one particular outlet or you know, and actually having a bit of a again, again with the flexibility, but also like an a bit of an omnipresent approach to things rather than picking one or two outlets you want to be in and being laser focused on them and thinking of nothing else, being in lots of different types of outlets because that's what it takes to really be visible. One massive piece isn't going to make you a household name. You know, one, however big the piece is, you could be on the front page of a national newspaper and get a lot of attention, get a lot, but you're that's not gonna keep you as a household name. It's if you think of anybody who is very well known and you search them and you look at all the different outlets that have written about them, that they've appeared in, that it's not gonna be one or two pieces, they're gonna be everywhere. There's gonna be lots and lots of different things. So, to create that the visibility and the authority and the credibility, you need to be open to more than just one or two outlets that you've thought of that you're like, I want to be in them. And sometimes that might mean adjusting expectations.

Local Press Is Not A Step Down

SPEAKER_00 11:30

So I'm a big fan, and I know you are too, Lawana, of local press can give you such amazing stories. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We are not snobs at Dauntless. We we recognize the value of mid-tier and local and regional press. It's not always going to be about being in Forbes. It's not always gonna be about being in, I don't know, the Times newspaper or the Washington Post or whatever might be your dream outlet that you think about. We absolutely encourage everybody to chase those dream outlets and the goals, but also accepting other opportunities, which actually all increase your chances. I think that's something that I don't know if this is an idea that's been put out by other PR agencies or just like a misconception people have got where they feel like if they go into other things, it's gonna lower their chances with a dreamer.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

It's completely backwards, isn't it? Like they need to know that they can rely on that person. They need to know that that person is credible, that they're gonna deliver. And the way they know that is by what media they've already had.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

When I worked in local newspapers at the beginning of my career, there were so many stories that I wrote about people that were then picked up by the nationals. Nobody ever said, I am not going to run an interesting story because it's already appeared in local press. It's the opposite, because that's not how they, that's not how journalists think. And I think this is it's how they might not want a story that's been everywhere told in the exact same way, but they're never going to be like, you're too visible for us. You've had too many other things, you appeared in a different outlet to us. Because actually, the more well-known and visible you are, the more attractive you are to them. So it's never going to be a case where they're going to say, Oh, we would have absolutely run a piece on you, but you went in one that we think is less exciting than us. So that's just not, it's it's not a thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

So I think that's not at all. And your ideal clients aren't thinking that either. They're thinking, oh, that's a good story.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Yeah. It's all it's much more about what you're saying as well. Like most people are not obsessing about where you're saying it, they want to hear what you've got to say and what your message is. And this is a really great piece. So that's such a good point. Yeah. And I think people can get in their own heads a bit too much about their image and their brand. And I think when we have really strict rules on ourselves, what we're really doing is we're just placing limits. Placing limits to the case. Yeah, totally. What we can do. And being open-minded, and that doesn't mean saying yes to everything. There will be some boundaries that you might have that you're like, I don't want to talk about this particular thing, or I really don't like this particular one, and that's absolutely fine. But it's about sensible boundaries if necessary, not limits for the sake of limits. I think that's the Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

It's like not looking for reasons to say no, because I I always think a better question to ask rather than how will I be perceived if I'm in this thing, is how can I make sure my message lands with my people? Because it is about the message. And I think something else that we do as well is that we encourage our clients to become stronger people, to be able to handle more visibility. And a way that we do that is they don't just go in front of audiences where everybody already believes, uh already agrees with them. Because some people want to like, you know, they want to keep it safe, they just want to speak to like audiences where they know that they already agree with them. But we have people going on these debates and going on like, you know, platforms where they have the complete opposite values because they know that that's where they have the most impact.

Values First Not Attention At Any Cost

SPEAKER_00 15:54

I think our values are quite a big thing where I think we stand out, in that we are not going to be the agency for people who just want visibility at any cost. So that's where it's about might be rage baiting. So someone who just wants the visibility, and so they're just gonna say or do anything to get eyes on them, even if that thing is not a positive thing that's gonna have a good impact. So they are literally, and we've all we can all think of examples of this. I'm not gonna name anybody, but we can all think of examples where maybe someone's publicist has gone, oh, you know, do this really shocking thing because loads of people will know who you are. And it ends up being a bit car crash, it gets a lot of attention, but it gets them quite negative attention. It's a bit like reminds me of, you know, when little kids, when they really want attention and they will literally do anything, and it might be pulling a load of stuff off the shelf just to get some attention, and it's not good attention, but it's attention. And paths come to mind, you know, and we we all like we all can think of examples in life where people have just done something to get attention, but the attention was actually really negative, but at least it was attention. That's not how we roll it all at dawnless. You know, if you had something where we were like, oh, we would we would tell you and say, Are you sure you want to like we very much work with people that want to make a positive change to the world, yeah, want to make a positive impact that's about you know solutions, let's you know, yes, give messages not spreading fear, spreading hate, or just ranting about something with no solution.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

What's the point?

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Yeah, so that's and also so on the same thing of you know, we're not gonna encourage you to do just anything for attention, we're also not gonna tell you that you need to change yourself to fit.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Absolutely not. And it sounds crazy that we even have to say that, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Yeah, and you know, there are there are agencies out there, and I understand, I think this is the thing, you can understand a different approach without having the same approach that will have very tight limits. They will be like, you know, you need more social media followers, you need to be more, you need to lose weight, they might even say, or they might, you know, they won't probably say it in that exact way. They'll talk about your image, or you know, maybe you they think you wear too much makeup or not enough makeup. And it's usually women that are given these impossible standards, by the way. How to dress is another one. You need to be wearing certain types of things, you need to make sure that you're going to these types of events and not this type of event, and they're trying to curate your image to fit what they think will be successful. But the problem with that is it isn't authentic. So people who do that, it might get them quite good results at first, but eventually it's going to start feeling hollow because it's not you. So if you're doing something that doesn't feel like it's aligned with you and what you want to do and your values, there might be some constructive criticism where maybe you go, actually, yeah, that that's something, you know, there might be something someone says where they go, actually, that's a really good point. I should be doing that. And they feel fully on board with it. But if it's something that you're doing purely to make yourself more media friendly, and it and it's not you, it's it might work for a little bit, but you're gonna feel stalled out, you're gonna feel hollow. It's not gonna feel like it's you that's getting that authority and that credibility and that visibility. It's gonna feel like it's a mask that's a persona rather than you. Yeah, and that's when people will often crash out. They'll like eventually get to the point where they'll be like, I don't want to do this anymore. This isn't, and we see this a lot with you know, social media influencers will often put on a facade until it just doesn't work anymore, and then it will be quite bad for their mental health, for their well-being. We are always going to support you to be you because if the media doesn't want you as you and your message, then actually let's keep going. Let's look at journalists who will, because the media is not one homogeneous lump of people. There is not one type of thing that they're looking for. So let's look at where you fit, what you can say, how we can work. Let's meet you where you are, because trying to mold yourself into a different-shaped whole, it's not going to end well for you because you're going to feel like you're pretending and you're going to have that feeling of inauthenticity, which I just don't think is is nice for anything. But also, I often think it isn't the ideas of what the media want isn't even what they want anyway. Because actually, if they just feature everybody that's the same, they're going to get bored of that eventually. And then what you're going to do suddenly go, oh, well, I was wearing a mask all the time. Like I'm actually on this other thing. When they sort of say, Oh, we're bored of people that are saying that and the other, you can't then suddenly go, well, I was only saying that to get into this outlet anyway, and suddenly change. So staying who you are is probably the most important thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Approach is the complete opposite, isn't it? Like we find the real aspects that are going to attract people and then amplify the hell out of that.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

And it's usually things that people have. Been shamed for in the past that they need to amplify.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yeah. And just I think we just encourage people to be themselves, to follow their dreams. We're not going to say to people as well, oh, we might we, as I say, we give honest advice about, you know, you might not straightaway be in all your dream outlets day one. You know, we're we're very realistic. But we also don't encourage people to not go

Go For Dream Outlets Now

SPEAKER_00 22:29

for those things. I think that's on the flip side. Definitely go for it. We have had people get their dream outlets, you know, in a few days. And that's why, again, why I don't believe in this like fixed plan, because what happens if you've got this, say, six, 12-month plan, and the end of that is this thing, but you actually get it in a week. Well, then you're like, oh, well, what now? It's not about ticking boxes for us. Yeah, it's about okay, that was your dream. What's your dream now? What should we do now? Let's pivot, let's evolve, rather than constant growth.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

What people do with plans, isn't it? Is like they'll build phase one is this thing, phase two, you expand on that phase three. Why not just do what you want to do from day one? Because sometimes they land.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah, and it's never, it's never a disadvantage to go for things. There's it's a myth. If anyone has ever told you, oh, you can't go for things too quickly, you've got to wait, you've got to build up. Because I can promise you, no journalist at a huge outlet is looking at this and going, oh, if they'd come to me in five months, it would have been a definite yes, but they're too early. That's not a thought process that anybody has. No. They're not thinking, oh, well, I want to see the months of preparation into this. What they're looking at is, has this person got a perspective or an idea or a story that I am interested in right now? That's what they're interested in. They're not doing all this sort of thing, they haven't got the time, in all honesty, to be like, I'm gonna spend ages weighing up whether this person has done enough prep for me to be interested in them. They are thinking, okay, what's this person got to say? Have they got a great story to share? Have they got a bit of advice that they're giving? Have they got a great perspective on something that I write about? Is this of interest to me right now? It might be a come back to them later, because maybe the timing's off. So you are gonna need to come back to them. But it's never gonna be about, oh, you've come to me too early on in your PR journey. It's going to be was that the right story or idea for right for that particular journalist on that outlet at that point.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

That's it. And just because you pitch once and don't get a response, or even if you get a no, it doesn't mean you don't pitch that journalist again. You carry on. Like it's not a one and done thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

So I think that's a really great point to finish on there.

Recap And How To Reach Us

SPEAKER_01 25:02

So just to recap, we are transparent, we're very open, we're very honest, and we don't do fluff. We go straight to what's gonna get the results. Okay. Any questions, any comments, email us hello at dauntlesspr.com. We'll see you next time.