Uncensored Thoughts From Decades in PR

Between us, Catherine Ball and I have 41 years in PR. That’s long enough to have opinions we probably shouldn’t say out loud. In this episode, we say them anyway - about the industry, journalists, the experts who get featured and what we’ve learned from being inside it for this long.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Dauntless PR unfiltered. Today, do you know what? This year is going to be 41 years that me and Catherine together will have been in PR. So between us, that's over four decades in the PR industry. And because of that, we're going to be sharing some uncensored thoughts that we've had through our time.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

I'm really glad that you said between us, then, because I was just wanting to say I didn't start when I was five. I'm going to say that was Yeah, there is that.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

No, between us.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Yeah, there's loads that we could talk about here. So much so we probably won't even scratch the surface of all the different thoughts that we've that we've had. I'm going to start it off with one that I think comes up in my brain a lot, just over over the whole course of working in the media, everything that I've done, which is that if your ego is bigger than your expertise, you won't make it in the media. And what do I mean by that? I don't mean don't be confident and kick ass and really own your message. Obviously, we want everyone doing that. But if being in the media is like a vanity project rather than about making an impact, it's all about, I think, the intention. Like, are you confident in what you have to say and you really want to help people and you really want to share your wisdom that people like that do amazingly? Are you someone that wants a list of accolades that you can tell people about? Like I appeared in this, that, and the other, but you're not really bothered about what you appear doing. You're not bothered about the impact that will make. They think that they're better than other people.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Oh, the the Z-list entitlement types.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

And you will be amazed at how many people go into doing uh media interviews with the idea that they are better than the journalists, that it's all a bit beneath them, it's a waste of their time. And I don't believe that they really, really deep down think that because they've shown up for the interview, they're doing it. So you know security. They yeah, it's this thing where they're telling themselves this, oh no, I'm too good for this, I'm doing you such a huge favour. And the thing with that is it just annoys everybody and it just sends the wrong vibe and message. The really, whenever I read an article, say, like in a magazine, like a big long interview where it's a big piece, I can always tell whether that journalist liked the person they were interviewing. Like they might not specifically say it, but if they don't like them, it's never going to be as good a piece as if they do. So that is something to bear in mind. Be likable and be humble, and I don't mean humble as in, oh, I'm I'm thank you so much, and subservient, you know, be confident, but also recognize that these are professionals who know what they're doing and they're experts in what they're doing, and you're an expert in what you're doing, and you're coming together and you're collaborating and having a great conversation that's going to have a great result. And, you know, the people that treated me like I was something on their shoe, I might have used them usually because it was more hassle than it was worth to replace them at the last minute, but I would never go to them again. I would never say as well. I would have been like, oh, they're horrible. But the people that energized me on the conversation and were fun to talk to and really knew their stuff, I would potentially go back to them again and again and again because I was like, they're fabulous, they're brilliant, and I feel like we I understand what they're trying to achieve, they understand what I'm trying to achieve, and that balance makes for brilliant media coverage and great PR.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

There's a story that you told me before that like it really stayed in my brain, and it was about somebody who used to pitch you over and over again, like an expert, and you couldn't use them, but without ever, without that person ever knowing, because she was pitching you regularly and they were great pitches, and you wanted to use it, you'd be recommending her all over the place. And then other people might have been going to her, not saying that they that you sent them her way, and just thinking, oh, I've been noticed. Like nobody really knows what's going on behind the scenes, and people like everybody knows that reputation is really important on the front end, but very few people think about the importance of it in the back end, like and all the conversations that go on behind the scenes, and it absolutely works both ways.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

So that particular person that you you talked about, I actually remember very deliberately eventually finding a way that I could use her in something because I was like, I really want to. So it was kind of that hang on, we could do a feature on this, and then she will be brilliant. But it works the other way as well. That if somebody is a real nightmare, then people will quietly tell each other and then they won't be used. And that person isn't gonna know that that is happening, you know. When we talk about blacklisting people, there isn't enough like a an official list that says, you know, media blacklist, but people absolutely are blacklisted. Oh, yes. Unofficially, you know, they're not there's not a a little sort of bat signal that goes around to all journalists to say not to use them, but it's a little bit like um anyone who watches things like Budgetum, what that kind of thing where people decide to socially shun people because they go, oh, they're out of society. It's sort of that happening on a professional level where people will tell someone else and they'll be like, Oh, yeah, you're looking for, I don't know, a sleep expert. This person might look great, but they're actually a nightmare. You want to speak to this person instead, and that kind of conversation will be quietly happening behind the scenes. So sometimes people will say to me, not our clients, by the way, just people in conversation. I used to have loads of media thing, and then no one seems interested in me anymore. And they usually think that that is just some random thing. I sometimes will think, I wonder what you did. I won't say this to them, but I'll be like, oh, that's interesting. Because if you're what you're saying is still relevant and interesting, and sometimes it might be that you know things have moved on, and maybe maybe you need to switch up your message a bit or something like that. But sometimes it might be that they just weren't a very nice person once. And you know, there's lots of stories in the media of kind of particularly among influencers, people who had a bit of a fall from grace and suddenly had to kind of try to get back in with all the people that they treated like crap. And it's an uncomfortable place to be if you have been horrible to people to then suddenly realize that actually you do need them. So there is that element of just be a nice person. I feel like that just be a nice person. Do you know what, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:22

When people nicely we were talking before this, weren't we? About how amazing our group is. Like our clients are just the best, the friendliest, most personable. They're they're funny, they're entertaining, they've got insane knowledge. Like, that's the kind of person they're rebellious, they go against the grain, but like not ever in an asshole kind of way. Like they're very, they're just very, very confident with their ways, and they've got like uh just big hearts, and they will do anything to get their message out there. And they're the people that get the results, and we we can we can spot who's gonna do well a mile off these days, can't we?

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Yeah, absolutely, and you know, again, going back to that sort of difference between ego and confidence, like we absolutely want you to be shouting your successes from the rooftop. So celebrating what you've achieved, and that doesn't come into it, but it's about kind of not trying to use the media as a glorified like CV or resume. I think sometimes when I say to people like, what are your stories that you want to share? And actually, all they want to do is go into the media and say, I am really great. This is the name of my business, these are the awards I won, and this is my programme and how you can sign up. The diff thing with that is that's an advert. Like, why would you why would you want to read that? Would you buy a magazine if someone said to you, and hand on heart here, would you buy a magazine in the shop if you knew that that magazine was just going to be people talking about what awards they'd won, what their business was, and how you could work with them? That's you wouldn't, would you? Yeah, that and I'm saying that, knowing full well that there are magazines that exist and they exist for the people who are featured, not the people buying them, they do not exist for the customers. I have never ever once, and I'm really sorry if you're listening to this and you have been in a pay-to-play magazine and you loved your piece, and I totally get it, it probably was exactly the words that you would want used, but nobody was rushing to read that because they were designed to appeal to the buyer, the buyer's the person being featured.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

It's it's that simple, isn't it? And I think, like, you know, when people want to do all of that and the vanity PR and stuff, like in their defense, because I definitely was like that at the beginning when I first started PR back in 2011, I was definitely like that as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

And looking back now, I can see that it absolutely 100% came from a place of fear, and also just being told that that's the right way, that that's what PR is, like just being given wrong information, and because we we see those kind of things on LinkedIn and platforms like that all the time, and so these magazines play on that and they're like, Oh, you could have this in a glossy magazine. The thing with actual traditional media is they are serving their audience, not the people who appear in it.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

That's why it's uncomfortable, isn't it? And you know, so completely badass.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, and that kind of takes me to another huge truth that I have learned from years of beyond, which is that letting go of control is uncomfortable, but that's okay and that's necessary. You will not always get, you might sometimes get to see pieces before they go out. You might do. I'm not gonna say that never happens, it happens often with very personal stories. It might happen if it's a very complex topic and the journalist wants to check with you that they've fully understood what you said. The vast majority of times you won't get control. So sometimes you'll never get, you know, if you are in a live interview, you have that moment to shine, and you've got a trust in yourself that you're gonna say what needs to be said, but you can't go back and edit it later. It's out, it's in the world.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

I always say, regardless of whatever type of interview it is, once you've done your interview, it's none of your business anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Touch. And you know, you have to just believe that in yourself and make sure that you're sharing the things that are important. Don't rely on the journalist to be psychic and know what you want to say if you're giving them a load of other stuff. Like if you've got something you want to say, make sure that you are saying it in the way you want to say it. And that's another little little uncensored truth that I come to is that most of the time when people say that they were misquoted, they weren't misquoted at all. They just are unhappy with how they performed in the interview and they don't like the words when they see them back. Guilty. Yeah, and it's it's because often it does seem out of context because you have the context of your entire brain and all your thoughts and your entire life, and people are seeing it pulled out. So it's you're the journalists can only make the recipe with the ingredients that you give them. And if you're giving them a load of stuff that you don't want to be in the final product, then you know, don't be so if you're if you think of it taking the analogy through, if you think of it as them making a chocolate cake, but you give them a bottle of poison and then you complain that that cake was poisoned. Well, yeah, you gave them the poison. If you tell them a load of shit that you don't want to appear in the piece, don't be surprised when it comes in the piece. You know, you would if I had a pound for every person that told me something, I used it, and then they said, Oh, I didn't mean for you to use that. I would, I would not have to work at all, I would be a rich person. And I'm like, You told me that. You didn't even tell me during the interview that you didn't want that used, you just expected me to know that you didn't want that used, and you treated it like a therapy session. Like, why tell me? Why are you telling me these secrets?

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Well, for one, that's testament to your interview technique because, right, and this is a big, big thing that I've noticed. The biggest fears that people have about doing interviews are things like going blank, tripping over their words, things that just don't fucking matter. They don't matter. You know, we can show you how to recover from them, it's fine. What the real danger, however, is when they go for interviews with journalists who are really, really good at interviewing, and you forget you're in an interview, and then you start like just talking like you're talking to an old friend. So when you come out of those interviews, you feel like you've had a great chat. Oh, yeah, that went really well. But the question is, yes, but was it effective for your business? So it's having that balance, isn't it? Because you do want it to be like a nice chat, you don't want it to be performative, but at the same time, you want to know that that your message has come across loud and clear, that you've got all the points that you wanted to across, and that you haven't just drifted into something completely, you know, completely awake from the topic that you came to speak on.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Because your job, and this is again something I really want people to understand the journalist and you have different jobs in an interview. Your job is to get your messages across and to get out what you want to get out about your business and to appeal to your target audience. That's your job in an interview. That's not the journalist's job. The journalist does not care, it's nothing to do with them. Their job is to find the most interesting angle for their audience to create something that is going to appeal to the audience. So you have competing priorities and you're having a great conversation. And that journalist isn't going to, unless they're a very kind, lovely person, they're not going to say, Oh, remember to plug your business. You haven't really told me about the reason that you're here. Yeah. They're going to think, This is a great story for my audience. You know, I'll I'm going to reveal one of my husband's like techniques of say my husband is also a journalist, although he works, he works in PR now, but he was a journalist for many, many years. And he his technique is silence. He is very quiet in interviews. When people start to talk about something interesting, he stays quiet. And he does that not because it's not got anything to say, but because people fear silence and they will feel it. And if they don't butt in with another question to like keep pulling them on, they will often share a lot more than they intended to share because they're filling the silence and they just keep going and going and going and going. So if he was to interview someone about a very sensitive thing, or maybe he was to interview someone about something where he really wanted to get to the truth of what maybe he's interviewing someone famous or powerful or something, and he really wants to find out what's really going on, he would just stay really silent. So, you know, people are their own worst enemy sometimes in that they will share a load of stuff that they don't mean to, but that's not on the journalist, it's about you controlling what you are gonna go in and say and to think about it beforehand. What do I want to say? What things do I need to cover and to just keep with that? And that is something we really help people with. That's not something you know. When you join Dauntless, we work with you on making sure that you are hitting those talking points, that you are, that you can handle these things, because it is, you know, it is something that takes a little bit of thought and practice often to, you know, really nail those interviews.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

It is as and also you know, that that you're coming across as you, not as some like performative version. When I first started PR, and when I had media training, like it's it's shocking some of the things that I was taught. They're the complete things that you know we stand against now. Things like I was told exactly what to say, how to say it, because this is what people want to hear. Sometimes it went against like everything that I felt inside. And at the point, you know, I always wrestled with myself, well, do I do I do this or do I not? Because everything in me was screaming no. But at the same time, I had people saying, This is how it works, this is what you have to say, this is what you have to do, this is what you have to come across. And I've never known such a toss in all my life by now, you know, looking back.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Yeah, because if you don't really believe in something, it's gonna show up. People are gonna get that vibe from you that you've you need to be saying the things that matter to you because that's what will really spread and make an impact and achieve what you actually want. If you're just saying it because you think that people want to hear it and it's gonna like advance your cause, it's it's never gonna come across as powerfully as if you're saying the things that really matter to you. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

People feel that conviction, don't they? And then, you know, it really helps with any kind of fear and resistance that comes up because you know that whatever comments you get that that means like you know that you can back yourself 100%. Like whatever somebody says that you can say no, like I know that this is the truth because this is my lived experience. These are the reasons. So that makes a lot of difference as well, because you know, we we're very aware, aren't we? Of it doesn't matter how established somebody is, how many years they've been in business, how many, how much money they make, how confident they come across, that fear and resistance is there at all levels. It just shows up in more creative ways. Like the more the more inner work somebody's done, the more it presents itself as logic, usually, isn't it? Like perfectly rational explanations. So that's that's a thing to watch for. So we're out of time for today. I feel like we could have talked about that for another three hours.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

It's probably a part two somewhere in there.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Definitely, definitely. I feel like we've still got way more to say on that topic. But any questions, any comments, or just to say hi, email us hello at dauntlesspr.com. See you next time.