What journalists are REALLY like behind the scenes (not how you think!)

When leaders start PR, they're often surprised by what journalists are REALLY like. 💪

In this episode, Catherine Ball and I talk about the clash between how people imagine journalists vs how they actually are behind the scenes. Listen in for more...

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Transcript

Speaker 0:02

Welcome to Dauntless PR Unfiltered. Today we're going to be talking about what journalists are really like. And believe me, it is not what you think. So there's this, there's a lot of misconceptions around journalists. Have you experienced that, Katherine?

Speaker 1 0:21

Yeah, so I feel like it's when I tell people I'm a journalist, most people's reactions are kind of, unless there's someone who works in the media or like has some sort of like knowledge of journalism. Most people's reactions are usually a little bit negative. They're like, oh, they'll say things like, oh, I'd better not tell you my secrets then, or I'd better be careful.

Speaker 0:47

Think you're gonna go remitting in their bins.

Speaker 1 0:49

Yeah. And I feel like there is a perception, we're probably among the most unpopular profession among you know what people's views are. So I would say, like journalists, maybe lawyers, maybe estate agents, people like that, people have very like set views on what we're like as people. And people often will assume, and I can understand why they assume this, that like if they see a media outlet and that seems to have a certain political viewpoint, a certain political agenda, maybe that newspaper or magazine or whatever says things that they're like, oh, I don't really like that. They assume that anyone who writes for that is the same, that they have this viewpoint. And in my experience, because I'm I'm conscious that I'm gonna say, Oh, all journalists like this, and obviously, all of anybody are not a certain way, like there will be allies to everybody, but like I have never ever once met anybody as a journalist who works as a journalist, who isn't like a really open-minded person, really curious about the world, really like accepting of different people, different viewpoints, different nationalities, different all the things that you would associate. And I'm gonna I'm gonna try and keep this like unpolitical, but I'm gonna use the word liberal in the sense of kind of like people who are kind of quite inclusive people they want to talk to, not meaning like a particular political party, but the kind of people who are quite kind of accepting of different people, different situations, that kind of thing. And the large reason for that, I think, is because it's a journalism isn't about writing, like people think. People think, oh, you know, you become a journalist because you like writing, it's about people, it's about talking to people, yeah, it's about finding their stories, it's about sharing those things. The writing is a part of it, and it's an important part of it. But I would say, so I used to work on a news desk of a daily newspaper, so part of my role was to kind of help manage the reporters, like give them their jobs and all that kind of stuff and improve their things. And I would always say you could take a bad writer who was amazing with people and make them a brilliant journalist. You cannot take a good writer who is bad with people and make them a good journalist. Like the writing is not enough. Like they need to know how to ask questions, how to encourage people to open up about what could be the most difficult period of their life. You know, you don't want to answer the door after something awful's happened and somebody's there and they're like super abrupt and socially awkward and they don't know how to ask you questions, they're not going to get anything from you, even if they could write it beautifully. So most journalists are people, a people's people, kind of, you know, they are they're people who find it easy to relate to people, they are they might be quite like empathetic people usually. They are particularly those who are writing human interest stories, you know, where they're talking to people about things that are important to them, you know, there may be slight differences where you go to different specialisms. So if it's like a scientific reporter, they're probably much more like data-oriented, but people will gravitate into those areas that they're good for. But within that, people most journalist are not how people expect. They sort of see them and they think, oh, they're writing this particular thing, they obviously have this huge political agenda, or they have a real ax to grind about things, or they kind of like push their idea of outlets onto the people who write for them. And that's often not the case. Now you could say, and I would accept this as valid criticism. Well, why are they writing for those outlets if they don't believe the things that they say? That's a valid criticism. I would say, like with anything, you know, they want to make a living, they want they there's a market for it, there's an audience, they're doing that. I've written for outlets that I wouldn't personally buy to read, but I've written for them. But I've been happy with what I've written. You know, I've I was happy with the story that I was doing, I was putting something out, I wasn't putting anything that I didn't believe in out there, but maybe that's the key, isn't it?

Speaker 5:45

That's the key. It's the same with people going on to outlets that they don't agree with, isn't it? It's like, well, if you're not going to do it, it's somebody else's. Now, if you do it, you've got control over the story. Yeah, and this is the thing, isn't it?

Speaker 1 6:00

That for me, so long as I could stand by my own work, I never thought it was my job to judge other things, so long as I felt like what I was doing was like in alignment with my values. It's there's a market for these things, these things wouldn't exist. I think the perception we have is that the media is controlling us, the media is doing all this stuff, and that we're all helpless people. In reality, the population is shaping the media. If nobody wanted what these outlets were selling, they wouldn't exist, you know.

Speaker 6:37

That's such an interesting perception, isn't it?

Speaker 1 6:40

If people didn't want to read a certain political viewpoint, they would all have to shift because it's a business, it's a business and they have to meet their audience. So I I think one of the common things when people join us and they haven't done a huge amount of media before, is they're often a little bit like worried about journalists, aren't they?

Speaker 7:04

Or what are they gonna do about you know I I remember when I first started like going into the press, I had this image that journalists would try and trick me up, that they would try and like I don't know, twist my words or get me to say something that I don't want, or something. Do you know what? My own experience hasn't been further from that and that of our clients, you know. Like I can honestly say I've never ever been interviewed by a journalist who is not friendly, like that's the main thing that hit me, like just how friendly they are, and where I thought when I first started doing interviews, where I thought when I'd be going into these interviews that the the danger would be that I would like be tripped up or something like that. Actually, the danger was that I forgot I was in an interview because I thought I felt like I was chatting to a friend. But what I've noticed is that they're very general. I mean, of course, there are going to be exceptions in every industry, but everyone that I've spoken to has always been very open-minded, very accepting, very curious and interested. And very like they want you to be happy with the story as well. Like they they want you to be happy. I know that there's a couple of times that I've slipped because I've just felt like I'm talking to a friend and I've said something I didn't mean to, and I've said straight away, I've just said, look, I'm really sorry I didn't mean to say that. Do you mind if we don't include that? And every time they've said yes. Now, I'm of course, the best thing would be not to have said it in the first place, but that just kind of proves the point that in my experience, they are not out to you know to trip you up and get you to say more than you intended to. They they just want it, they want a good story and they want the the person involved to like that story as well.

Speaker 1 9:21

Yeah. I mean, it's in nobody's interest for somebody to want to pull their story at the last minute because they feel worried about it. It's in nobody's interest to get a load of complaints. Like, you know, no one's setting out to do a hatchet job. And I think this is where people's stereotypes about the media and the reality is is very different. No newspaper wants to be tied up in court cases or have loads of complaints against them. What I do blame a little bit is the fictional representations of journalists on like TV and in films are terrible. Oh, and I'm sure that I'm sure anyone in any kind of profession where you might have seen that profession, like in fiction, will have experienced that themselves. So, like, I'm sure if you were a pathologist, you'd be watching Silent Witness going, Well, we don't run around solving crimes, we literally just do the post-mortems. Like, like fictionalized versions of jobs are always wildly exaggerated, aren't they? But in TV, they will have you believe that a normal experience will be a ton of reporters being outside your house if something happens, shouting at things through the door, like doorstepping you and like running after you on your lawn. Obviously, if you were an extremely high-profile person that had been accused of a terrible crime, they might come and ask you questions in that way. But that will not be the majority of people's experience of the media. That's a very unusual situation. They will also have you believe that people might knock on your door and then stick their foot in the door. I have never ever once in 25 years of being a journalist stuck my foot in anyone's door. And yet, if you watch films and TV, it makes it look like everybody's doing it. It's hilarious. You know, I've never lied. And I know this is something that some journalists in the past have done, which is why we ended up having, you know, things like the phone hacking scandal. There's always bad practice within any industry. But the problem is that people then imagine that bad practice is everywhere rather than these individual places. You know, I've never once lied to somebody and pretended not to be a journalist to talk to them. And that's another common stereotype because it's just not something that most people are doing. It's not tolerated by most media outlets, it's not the common experience. And particularly if you're somebody who, you know, is wanting to be in the media to publicize something, that is not the kind of thing. You're not going to get the treatment that you might do if you'd like murdered your whole family. If you're wanting to talk to them about your personal story and you're wanting to tell them about your business or share your expertise, those situations of being in the media, they're going to want to hear what you've got to say, they're going to want to listen to you. The biggest skills, as I said before, it's the people skills, the soft skills, are what makes a good journalist. And that's what most journalists have in abundance. You know, sometimes people will forget themselves, like you were saying, Luana, where you will almost end up treating it like a therapy session because you'll be talking about something that you don't often talk about, perhaps, and they'll be asking you searching questions because in the same way as a therapist might. They'll be like, oh, and how did that make you feel? And they're full of empathy, they're full of empathy and understanding. You know, so there is an element of, I guess, with interview technique, is kind of working out your boundaries beforehand. Like, what do I want to say? What don't I want to say? Are there any areas that I want to make sure I don't go into and like have that conversation with yourself like before the interview? But my um my husband is also a journalist, or he was, he's he was a journalist up until recently, and his technique, which has always been very effective, is to say very little in the interview and let them fill the silence. So obviously he asked the question, but then he just lets them go. And that is extremely effective as an interview technique because if you don't rush in to fill the silence and say, Oh, and I bet you felt like this, didn't you? And oh you know, and you just actually let them share themselves, and people will often give you a lot more information because they'll say, Oh, and I'd better tell you this, and I'd I'd I better tell you that. So that kind of silence being quite a powerful thing, but again, the perception people have is that we're constantly interrupting and pushing our thoughts, and this is how I want the story to be, and this is where it's actually most of the time, they will sit back and they will hear what you've got to say, and then afterwards they'll think, okay, so what's the story here? What was the most interesting thing? So, yes, if you drop a bomb in the middle of the interview, like a really exciting thing, that probably will become the point of the story because you know, if you've gone on to talk about your business, but then you drop in that actually, you know, you lost all your limbs in a bomb blast, and that's how you did it.

Speaker 14:57

They're obviously gonna go, Well, it's what happened to me, isn't it? When I had my first story that that spread like wildfire, that was because I was talking about a film that I was in, and then I'm I just said one sentence which was about my marriage, and then the journalist was like, Can you tell me more about that? And I paused and I thought, should I backtrack? Should I ask her not to include, or should I just fuck it and see what happens? And well, you know, you know what happened next. The rest is history, the rest is history, and here we are.

Speaker 1 15:39

So, you know, yeah, they yeah, yeah, and I think it's that human thing, if it's like looking at it from a point of like curiosity that obviously they're gonna want to focus in on the most interesting things that you tell somebody. So, from the point of view, if you think, oh, but I don't want it to become about this, well, don't talk about it. So I always say to people, like, again, we've got this media perception that you can just say, oh, this is off the record, and that that's that's like this gospel law. And some journalists will abide by that if you say, Oh, this is off the record. But most of the time, if you're talking to a journalist for a story or for an interview, they're there to find out what you've got to say. They don't really want you to start editing it all afterwards, being like, Oh, how how annoying must that be?

Speaker 16:34

You know, if somebody pivots and goes off about something else and then says, Oh, please don't use any of that thing I've just been talking about for the past 20 minutes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 16:44

My worst nightmare is as a journalist would be somebody spends an hour telling me the most fascinating story I've ever heard, and then they just turn and go, but you can't use any of that. That's just completely wasted time, and that would then make me not want to hear what else they had to say, because I'd be like, Do you know what? I'm I'm not interested in it more. Because if they've then gone, oh my goodness, I could tell you my life story and it's really inspirational, it's really amazing, but actually, no, you can't use any of that because then I'd be like, Why did you tell me if I can't use it? Like, I'm not an unpaid therapist, like I'm not here to just absorb your stuff while you process it, like I'm here to do a job, and that to me would feel like, oh, so you've just told me something I can't use for no reason other than to have.

Speaker 17:38

But journalists are insanely busy, so they don't have a spare hour to chat. Yeah, so that's the thing.

Speaker 1 17:44

If they're talking to you, they want to know, they want the answers to the questions, they want to know what's going on. If they're talking to you about something and they say you mention something and they start asking more about it, that means that you've captured their interest, they're excited, they're they are, you know, wanting to hear more. But I think it's really important as well to just point out that, like, you know, journalists are human beings, it seems really like it's common sense, but I think so many times people forget and they only put themselves in the position of the person being interviewed, and they forget that that person also has thoughts, feelings, opinions, and you know, it can also be you know, if they hear something that's a really upsetting story, they they hopefully won't push that on you, but you can bet that they'll be affected by it, they'll go away and they'll have thoughts about it. And the number of times, I'm not ashamed to admit, I have cried on my way back from so many interviews, particularly in person ones. I've cried when I've been writing things up. I haven't cried to the person I was interviewing because it's not my story, and like that would feel unprofessional, particularly if they're not crying, like if they're sharing something really upsetting, you know, maybe they've overcome some you know horrific thing and they've come through it and they're telling me this story. And you know, the number of times when I've been writing it up, I've like allowed myself to put myself in their shoes and like feel how they must have felt, but I would do that sort of away from it. So I think this perception that we're all kind of out to get people and very like mercenary and unfeeling is so different from the reality, where actually a lot of a lot of the journalists that I know are extremely empathetic, probably too empathetic. They probably carry this stories that I've done that I still carry with me. There are things that I still think about some of the people I've interviewed, and I think I hope they're okay. Like I hope I used to cover lots of court cases and inquests and things like that, and obviously, completely different type of media to what any of you guys listening are not going to want your um media coverage to be a court case, you know, that's not what you're aiming for, but like obviously you hear some really affecting details, you know, some of the things in there, like they are hard. Once you've heard them, you can't unhear them. You like hear all these things going on in people's lives, and that most journalists will have gone through almost like a training ground of these quite hard-hitting stories. They might have gone out to people in like really difficult situations, they will have covered court cases and heard really quite shocking and upsetting evidence, and that will have shaped who they are. So they are people who know about these awful things, they probably know far more about people, people's nature, how the world works, how the systems work than most people because they've had to sort of throw themselves into these situations, which means that they are like open-minded, understanding, they've seen these different things. They've they might not agree with every person that they're saying. I'm not saying that they haven't maybe gone, I wouldn't do that myself, or you know, those kind of thoughts that we all have when we speak to people, but they will have spoken to people in so many different situations and circumstances that they're not the kind of people who live in a bubble and think everybody is like them. They have been forced out of that, that they know that not everybody has their privilege, that not everybody has their position. And I think some of the most closed minded people are the people that have only really dealt with people who are like themselves. Haven't they so that they fear anybody else? So by their very nature, by even just covering news on a local newspaper, which that's kind of the common training ground for most journalists. Well, start off, they might be working on a local newspaper. Well, even just having to go out and talk to people from all walks of life in their local area, it gives them that kind of understanding of, oh, okay, not everybody has a life like mine. Not everybody has the same sort of outlook as I do. Not everybody has the same situation. Some people's lives are awful, some people's lives are amazing. Like it gives them that kind of well-rounded perspective on the world. And I think, in the most part, that actually makes them a less less threatening presence than people expect. I mean, you know, I think it's really rare that any of our clients actually say that they've had a conversation they haven't enjoyed, isn't it? You know, like yeah, completely.

Speaker 23:07

I I can't even think of one example. No, I'm not I'm not saying it's been 100% like people have loved who they've spoken to. I'm sure it hasn't been. I just can't think of anything like that's how uncommon it is.

Speaker 1 23:20

The only negative experience is we've ever that in my memory, anyway, that come across a podcast host, and that's a very different thing. Yeah, yeah, podcast hosts, yeah. And I'm not saying this to throw shade on podcast hosts, not on our own podcasts, anyway, because that would be very hypocritical, wouldn't it? But the reason sometimes, and I I I genuinely think this is the reason, is because most podcast hosts aren't journalists, most podcast hosts potentially could be in a world where really they only talk to people who are like them, because some so you can get a clash where you're maybe you're a bit different to the people that they're used to talking to, so there is that kind of clash. Doesn't happen most of the time. I'm not gonna suggest that. No, no, this is very this is an unusual situation, but that's the only times that I can think it's happened, and it's usually simply because they are less experienced at interviewing people than a journalist would be, they haven't been put through their paces, they haven't done the training, they haven't had that kind of formal like education in how to like bring out people's stories. You know, it's one of these things, isn't it, that again, people, if you if I was to say, oh, what do you think that like the kind of training you'd go through as a journalist? People would probably focus on like the nitty-gritty things, like, oh, well, you'd need to know like how to write an article, like how to write this, that, and the other. You'd need to know your like grammar and spelling and the law and things like that. And obviously, you do, but the biggest training, I think, is that on-the-job thing of like how do you talk to people, how do you interview them? How do you go from in the morning, you might be talking to the prime minister, and in the afternoon you might be talking to a mother who's lost her child? Like, how do you switch and do your best work with both of those situations? And the vast majority of people they would find that really hard, but that's the normal reality that you're switching from these different scenarios, so you have to be able to meet everybody at their level, wherever that level is. Yeah, and that, you know, is any of the people listening, you know, if if you're somebody who works with people, you'll know yourself that being able to meet that person at their level is like the best way possible to get what you know. If you're a coach, that's probably one of your techniques that you use, isn't it? That or like a therapist, like you want to kind of match people's energy, you want to kind of meet them at where they're at, you want to like get the sort of understanding of what their situation is before you like leap in with whatever you're gonna do. So I think they probably have a lot more in common with you than you think they will. That's the thing. Yeah, a lot of the techniques they're using. If you are somebody like like a coach, like a therapist, like any kind of person who's probably gone into business. I feel like most entrepreneurs have a curiosity about the world, they have like a an interest. They're not somebody who wants to stay in their comfort zone. That's why they've started a business. That's that's why they want PR. Like the people who want to be in the media are people who are like pushing their own boundaries. So they you're probably gonna get on with almost every journalist you talk to. So I think that's something to bear in mind. Like, and if you've had a bad experience, don't let that put you off. Like, like I say, there's gonna be a bad apple in every barrel.

Speaker 27:24

There is in every industry, isn't there? It's like saying if somebody's had a bad coaching experience, it's like saying all coaches are scammers, or you know, that or and it's just not true, you know. Like you get some who are phenomenal and others who are not so much, it's the same in every industry, isn't it? Yeah.

Speaker 1 27:45

And you know, it's it's often more that the experience, maybe the experience of talking about the particular thing might have not been that pleasant rather than the journalists themselves. Again, I think if you're talking about something that's difficult to talk about, yeah, you might come off and be like, oh yeah, that was hard. But it's not actually that it was hard because of anything that anybody did, it was just hard because it's a hard thing to send yourself back there, even if you're doing it because you think it's a really important story to tell. Like it can be hard to go to go back and like put yourself back in the position that you were in at points of your life and like remember how you felt. And in the same way as you might come out of a therapy session and be like, I didn't enjoy that, wouldn't it? Because the therapist is like a horrible person, it would just be like a yeah, that like I had to like process some feelings there, like that was that was tough. I'm not suggesting, by the way, that you should be treating journalists as therapists, but you know, sometimes you automatically end up having to share these these stories that maybe are times where you're like, oh wow, you know, I'd forgotten how I felt when I was in that moment until I started talking about it, and that's kind of brought memories back. I mean, you know, some of the most powerful stories that people have to tell involve them overcoming some crazy shit, don't they? You know, you know, we've all got those stories that shaped who we are, they've given us the reason. Our like mission, our motivation, our purpose often falls back to some of the stuff that's happened to us when we were younger, like what happened to us that meant that we now really care about this thing, that we really want to. I mean, some of our clients, their stories absolutely blow me away. Like, I'm so lucky because with Dauntless, I get to do the probing and the chatting and the finding the story, but then in most journalists, then that would be it. You'd be like, bye, and you'd move on with your life. But I get to carry on having these conversations with people about this amazing stuff. So I'm like, I get to like stay with them and find out more stuff. Whereas, you know, normally with a journalist, you you most likely will only speak to that person once. You might sometimes speak to them more than once, but like you'll tell them your story, they'll go away, they'll do what they do, and then that'll be it. Yeah, but you see their entire journey. Yeah, whereas I get to go back and be like, Oh, that thing you told me about, like, can you tell me some more about that? Yes, that's really great.

Speaker 30:38

You know, I always thought if you if you weren't a journalist, that you would be a private investigator because I've never known anybody more furious, you know, everything, like you you can just find out everything about everybody.

Speaker 1 30:54

I absolutely absolutely would. I would I would so hire you if I needed one, I would absolutely hinder you. You know, when you have those moments where you're like, if I was living a totally different life, what would that life be? And yeah, private investigator. The only thing I think why I wouldn't like it is I feel like there's probably a lot of sitting around in your car.

Speaker 31:17

Yeah, again, it's not like I I imagine that it's not like what you see on TV. Do you know, do you know, talking about like the portrayal about people on TV again, right? I had somebody message me last week, and this made me laugh so much, and I I loved it as well. But she said to me that she always had this vision about PR, PRs, about thinking that they were spin doctors, and and that I had um helped her to see that that's not actually the case, and I thought that was so funny because that is the the last thing that we would ever do, isn't it, Catherine? Is take somebody who is a pile of shit and make them look good. Like we take people who are good, who are doing amazing things, and we amplify what's real about them, and that is the complete opposite to how it's often portrayed in films and stuff like that as well, isn't it?

Speaker 1 32:19

And I think it's because when people think about it, like you know, they've got these ideas of these like films and things like that, but also it's like the perception of maybe like a really seedy politician who's like getting away with absolute murder. Won't name any names, but we can all visualize a seedy politician. Or visualize one right away, getting away with things, and 90% will visualize the same one, and we see around these kind of people a like a structure that's like there to protect them, and part of that is somebody doing their PR, isn't it? It's like making their utter shit sound better, yeah. But that's that is the public-facing thing of what most people see, and of course, if you are a very powerful person spewing a load of shit, of course, you're gonna try and get somebody to make it sound less problematic than it is to varying degrees of success. I mean, if you're thinking, yeah, that's a pile of shit, then their PR people haven't successfully done what they're setting out.

Speaker 33:28

Or they've ignored their PRs.

Speaker 1 33:30

Yeah. But the reality is, most people I would like to believe, and I think most people would like to believe, most people aren't steaming piles of shit with really bad intentions. Most people are doing the best they can, they are like trying to make the world a better place, they have like their own values and their own principles, and so people like us, we don't take existing people and like manage their reputation. There are people that do do that, that is not what we do. We take people who have got things to say, have got messages, have got purpose, and we amplify that. And so, if you are someone who doesn't have anything worth hearing, we're not gonna want to take you on as a client.

Speaker 34:22

And we're also not not from you, not I can't talk now. We're also not for you if you just want to pretend to be something that you're not, and you want this like fake version of yourself put out there, no, that's not us.

Speaker 1 34:38

I would say, you know, if if the only way you could see yourself being in the media is something completely polished and curated, and everything has to be triple approved, and you the idea of a journalist forming their own opinions from your words and things like that doesn't appeal to you, you know. Then that again, it probably PR isn't for you, to be in all honesty.

Speaker 35:07

But but that's what pay to play, that's what PA pay to play is. Well, I've lost the ability to talk by now, Catherine, but that's what pay to play is for, isn't it? For people who want a carefully controlled pieces, and that is absolutely fine, it's just not what we do. So to finish off, then leave you with just one reminder like we'll we'll put this whole episode into one line, and that is people are generally not steaming piles of shit with bad intentions. That's our life lesson for the day. Any comments, we love to hear from you. Hello at dauntlesspr.com